ACE decided to go on a little faux morality melodrama here, regarding the accused Duke rapists (“Oh the injustice towards those darling, pure, innocent little boys). My point as to why he is such a hypocrite is in bold, in case it’s too much work to read through everything. Excerpt of Salon article followed by excerpt of ACE’s long post – that began by criticizing Salon’s blind defense of the woman accuser:

Salon:

By wearing sweatbands saying “innocent,” Duke’s women’s lacrosse team is displaying a pack mentality — and disrespecting women.

By Kevin Sweeney

Innocent.

That’s the word written on sweatbands the Duke University women’s lacrosse team will wear when they take the field Friday at the start of their sport’s premier event. (The women’s lacrosse Final Four, which determines the NCAA championship, takes place this weekend at Boston University’s Nickerson Field.) With the bands, the women are apparently suggesting that the Duke men’s lacrosse team, and the three members charged with sexual assault, are innocent.

I generally assume women tell the truth about rape. I’d say that 95% of rape charges are true (or pretty much true). But that leaves 5% of charges which are fraudulent, and that is not an insignificant percentage.


ACE:

But the left would invert its usual claim — “it’s better than 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man be convicted” — in rape cases, especially, of course, when it’s a minority woman accusing wealthy white male oppresors. Then, it becomes “It’s better that every one accused of rape be convicted, guilty or innocent, so as not to dissuade other women from coming forward to accuse other men of rape.”

The writer concludes his idiotic essay by suggesting that the womens’ lacrosse team display the word “Respect” on their wristbands, rather than “Innocent.” It could, you see, mean many different things to many different people.

Well, that sort of defeats the purpose of trying to send a message, doesn’t it?

Why not just have them wear writstbands that say “Bush lied, people died”?

I grow so tired of the left lecturing us that we must never render an opinion as a citizen on a case of political import, unless that opinion agrees with their own, in which case, have a lynching party. We heard this claim constantly when Bill Clinton was accused of his various crimes — we must not assume his guilt, we were told — as they nearly simultaneously proclaimed his complete innocence.

It’s one or the other, guys. One or the other.

I would like the sentence “We should not try this case in the media” barred from ever being spoken again. It’s an empty platitude; of course we all have opinions on cases as we hear them, and there’s nothing in the Constitution that demands we stay silent about those opinions.

Further, as a technical matter, you simply can’t be “convicted in the media.” You’re either convicted in a courtroom or not at all.

I would love to see the Salon column written about the exact same incident, with the exception that the races on the accuser and accused were reversed.

Posted by Clark at May 26,


I would love to see the Salon column written about the exact same incident, with the exception that the races on the accuser and accused were reversed.
It’s not exactly the same, but close: Kobe Bryant.
The MSM called the 19 year old girl who accused Kobe everything short of a slutty whore for months before the trial.

Posted by Sue Dohnim at May 26, 2006 01:06 PM


But the left would invert its usual claim — “it’s better than 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man be convicted” — in rape cases, especially, of course, when it’s a minority woman accusing wealthy white male oppresors. Then, it becomes “It’s better that every one accused of rape be convicted, guilty or innocent, so as not to dissuade other women from coming forward to accuse other men of rape.”
================
Agree. However, this does not change the fact that the above is not the worst problem regarding rape in society. The worst problems are : rape is still happening at high rates; the majority of victims don’t even sue, much less make false accusations. Is there any outrage about it? No.
The same goes for child abuse. The majority of child abusers are never CHARGED. You can’t accuse someone wrongly if you don’t accuse anyone at all.

Posted by alessandra at May 26,


There is also the trivial little matter that they haven’t yet been proven guilty, and that makes them, well, innocent.
Posted by B Moe
================
The presumption of innocence does not apply outside a courtroom. OJ was pronounced not guilty in a court of law even though he is as guilty as sin. If her supporters what to call him guilty and their supporters what to call him innocent — so be it.
Posted by shawn
================
Tend to agree with shawn (a first!) with one difference. But first: the failure of a legal attempt to prove guilt does not prove at all someone is innocent. Lots of guilty people have walked free in a court process. I am talking in general, not saying that I think the accused are guilty in this case (I haven’t followed the details).

But the problem with jumping the gun to either guilt or innocence before examining admissable and inamissable evidence, although allowed and practiced outside (and not that rarely inside ) a court-room, can also be a show of tremendous bias or pre-conceived notions. It doesn’t mean pre-conceived notions and insights can’t ever be right, but it’s no guarantee either.

Posted by alessandra at May 26


However, this does not change the fact that the above is not the worst problem regarding rape in society. The worst problems are : rape is still happening at high rates; the majority of victims don’t even sue, much less make false accusations. Is there any outrage about it? No.

What is a problem for “society” is a statistical thing.
What is a problem in an actual case is different. There may be a problem with underreporting or undercharging rape in “society;” that says nothing at all about the immediate matter, which have flesh and blood human beings whose credibility and criminality are at issue.

And it’s a mistake to link the two, or try to vindicate the problems in rape “in society” by falsely convicting individual human beings in a specific case.
I don’t like these appeals to *general* problems when we’re discussing the specific fates of specific individuals.

Posted by ace at May 26, 2


I know almost nothing about this case. I don’t think that the female lacrosse players should wear those sweatbands, though. It’s like politicizing a non-political event, in this case a lacrosse match.

The whole thing stinks. I hate the way we deal with rape. You can see it clearly in this case; people aren’t making up their minds based on truth, but on wishful thinking. Circuses like this discourage actual rape victims from coming forward. Alessandra is right that most actual sexual violence never gets reported, and I don’t think that “teachable moments” like this are helping.

Posted by sandy burger at


What is a problem for “society” is a statistical thing.
============
I didn’t know rape victims were things.

And it’s a mistake to link the two,
They are linked however, so the mistake is not to see how they link or to misinterpret the link.

or try to vindicate the problems in rape “in society” by falsely convicting individual human beings in a specific case.

Agree. But stating how much indifferent and unjust society is towards a huge number of rape victims is not the same as falsely convicting these guys. It’s pointing to a hypocritical harmful mentality that is still quite prevalent in society.

I don’t like these appeals to *general* problems when we’re discussing the specific fates of specific individuals.

General problems that involve the rape of hundreds of thousands of individuals and their fates?

Posted by alessandra at May 26, 2006 01:40 PM


She’s the girl who cried wolf. Don’t take off your clothes and simulate sex in front of drunk college guys.

I know, I know–she didn’t “ask” for it.

But in this case, nobody forced her to be a stripper either. You can’t have it both ways and then become outraged when your word is questioned.

Posted by kevlarchick at May 26, 2006 01:43 PM


Tend to agree with shawn (a first!)

Guess I’m slipping, huh?

Posted by shawn at May 26


But stating how much indifferent and unjust society is towards a huge number of rape victims

Society is neither unjust nor indifferent to rape victims. Your beef was that the rapes weren’t reported. How do you blame society for that? If indifference is the problem, it’s apparently indifference on the part of the victims.

Posted by Roy at May 26, 2006 01:55 PM


There’s a great line in the lawyer’s closing arguments in “A Time to Kill” (it was in the movie also) after he described to the jury all the terrible things that were done to the little girl. He says, “Now imagine she was white.”
How true it is.
==============
The victim is struggling on another front. After insisting the nasty white boys didn’t use condoms, the DNA from her vagina and rectum has positively identified three individuals; her boyfriend and his two friends who drove her to the Lacrosse party.
Doh.

Posted by Jacko at May 26, 2006 01:57 PM


I didn’t know rape victims were things.
Come on, that’s not what Ace meant at all.

It’s pointing to a hypocritical harmful mentality that is still quite prevalent in society.

I agree with you. And, whether or not Ace makes it the priority you do, he hasn’t said anything which contradicts this, either. All he’s doing is insisting that these men get a fair trial based only on the facts of this specific case; society at large is an entirely separate issue.

As for the problem of sexual violence in general, I’m quite sure that false rape accusations don’t help matters any, and I’m sure you agree.

Posted by sandy burger at May


If indifference is the problem, it’s apparently indifference on the part of the victims.

I don’t buy it. Look, I know a few women who were raped, none of whom reported it, for a number of reasons. They certainly weren’t indifferent to having been raped, though.

Posted by sandy burger at May 26, 2006 02:08 PM


How do you blame society for that? If indifference is the problem, it’s apparently indifference on the part of the victims. Posted by Roy
=======
“In the past, the reason people didn’t report was that they feared nothing would be done, or that they wouldn’t be believed, or that it was too personal a crime,” said Jamie Zuieback, spokesperson for the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network in Washington, D.C.,

Where did these fears come from? From seeing that nothing was done or that victims were attacked in a variety of ways if they tried to speak out.

The only person on Earth that could be deemed “indifferent” to being raped is a person not being able to function as a human being, such as a concentration camp survivor or profound abuse survivor who’s psychological functioning was so ill, they could not consciously deal with more violence being done to them. More correctly it would be to term this total incapacity – not indifference.

Practically speaking, there is no such thing as “indifference” to being raped.

Posted by alessandra at


And, whether or not Ace makes it the priority you do, he hasn’t said anything which contradicts this, either. All he’s doing is insisting that these men get a fair trial based only on the facts of this specific case; society at large is an entirely separate issue.
=================
What I am pointing out is that for every such case, there are thousands of real rape cases that nobody gets outraged about, nor do they blog about the injustice of the un-reportedness. Nor the difficulty in prosecuting real rapists. It’s clear to me that what people get outraged about is part of the larger social problems with rape.

As for the problem of sexual violence in general, I’m quite sure that false rape accusations don’t help matters any, and I’m sure you agree.

I don’t think people who promote porn, stripping, and prostitution have much of a moral stand about how awful it is for a false accusation to happen, since all of these things profoundly create a culture of sexual exploitation and violence, and which includes violent and degrading sexual behavior.

Which is different than saying ” falsely convicting someone will vindicate the sexual violence in society.”

Posted by alessandra at


Alessandra,
It’s a bit cheap to suggest I meant something I have to imagine you know I didn’t.
What I meant, obviously, was that general statistical evidence about the underreportage or underprosecution of sex offenses has NO BEARING on specific cases. So I don’t see the point in bringing general statistical “evidence” up when discussing a specific case.

It is statistically true that young black men are greatly overrepresented in committing street-level crimes. Such evidence, however, does not speak to the guilt or innocence of a specific young black man charged with a mugging.

It’s so tedious to even discuss an issue with someone who argues in bad faith.
“So rape victims are things?”

Yeah, Alessandra, they’re things. They’re objects without sentience or humanity. That’s precisely what I meant, and I applaud you for seeing through my obfuscations.

Posted by ace at May 26, 2006 02:36 PM


I don’t think people who promote porn, stripping, and prostitution have much of a moral stand about how awful it is for a false accusation to happen, since all of these things profoundly create a culture of sexual exploitation and violence, and which includes violent and degrading sexual behavior.

Once again, Alessandra removes herself from the bounds of reasonable discussion.
Later on I think I’m going to watch a Kayla Kleavage video. Just doing my part to keep rape alive.

Posted by ace at


I don’t think people who promote porn, stripping, and prostitution have much of a moral stand about how awful it is for a false accusation to happen,

I’ve frequented a strip club or two in my time. Clearly, I have no moral standing to complain if someone decides to falsely accuse me of rape. Hell, I was pretty much asking for it.

Posted by The Warden


It’s still immoral to hire strippers. I’m glad the law will treat the fornicators as innocent, because that is the law of the land for the time being. But then abortion is legal, too. It doesn’t make an abortionist “innocent” of a grave moral sin, it only makes them innocent in the eyes of the law.

I don’t care if it is part of the ace of spades lifestyle or something. Lust is a sinful behavior. You shouldn’t try to put a political spin on it.

Ace, you spend all day trying to cut through BS like double-standards and the immorality that is destroying our nation’s moral fabric. You do a great job. But then every once an a while you totally drop the ball.

To totally flub up an otherwise consistent moral framework to leap to defend the “innocence” of a bunch of fornicating creeps makes it seem like you have a special soft-spot for men who pay money for the right to treat women like dirt. It’s a free country and all that… and even sex perverts have a right to a defense… but why fall all over yourself trying to candy coat what we know they did?
They probably don’t belong in jail, but they still are a bunch of dirtballs.

Posted by at May 26, 2006


The real question is how often false reporting of rape occurs in high profile cases, which I suspect is significantly higher than the false reporting rate for “normal” rape cases. I don’t think applying the mean rate to cases where the “victim” has substantial opportunity to gain is likely to be very accurate.

Posted by geoff


ACE: It’s a bit cheap to suggest I meant something I have to imagine you know I didn’t.
This is what I wrote:

I don’t think people who promote porn, stripping, and prostitution have much of a moral stand about how awful it is for a false accusation to happen, since all of these things profoundly create a culture of sexual exploitation and violence, and which includes violent and degrading sexual behavior.

AND

stating how much indifferent and unjust society is towards a huge number of rape victims is not the same as falsely convicting these guys. It’s pointing to a hypocritical harmful mentality that is still quite prevalent in society.

I don’t think there is anything cheap in the above, quite on the contrary.

Posted by alessandra at May 27, 2006 12:01 PM


Alessandra: “I don’t think people who promote porn, stripping, and prostitution have much of a moral stand about how awful it is for a false accusation to happen,”
============
The Warden : “I’ve frequented a strip club or two in my time. Clearly, I have no moral standing to complain if someone decides to falsely accuse me of rape. Hell, I was pretty much asking for it.”
============
If you think it’s just fine to exploit and degrade women as you please, your moral standing is the same as a false accuser who thinks it’s fine to accuse anyone as they please. On the same level…

And I guess it’s so comfortable to put one’s head in the sand about just how much degradation and violence there is in porn, prostitution, and stripping and then bring on the hyperventilated “oh my God, if they convict those poor little boys…”

Just a tad completely full of bs, but we can’t expect certain people to face it…

Posted by alessandra at May 27, 2006 12:14 PM


Alessandra: “I don’t think people who promote porn, stripping, and prostitution have much of a moral stand about how awful it is for a false accusation to happen, since all of these things profoundly create a culture of sexual exploitation and violence, and which includes violent and degrading sexual behavior. “
============
ACE: Later on I think I’m going to watch a Kayla Kleavage video. Just doing my part to keep rape alive.

============
This sure won’t bother so-called Christians on your blog. You know, it’s just the thing they think they are following Jesus in.
============

ACE: Once again, Alessandra removes herself from the bounds of reasonable discussion.
Dave in Texas:Boy I sure didn’t see that coming.

==============
Obviously, the above first criticism is nothing that so-called Christians can contribute to.


And on a final end-note, when so-called Christians everywhere -who are specially well-represented in Texas- aren’t lewd or violent, they behave so cowardly.

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